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The Third Way

This topic contains 224 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of jens jens > 7 days ago.

Discussions Politics Today The Third Way

Viewing 10 posts - 211 through 220 (of 225 total)
  • #1699764
    Profile photo of bluecodbluecod
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    Member since: June 12, 2007
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    bluecod

    Hi Grownups

    Here’s my new Visionary Business Concept that would enable any NZ citizen including: low-income people and families, friends and relatives and associates to participate in order to improve their health and income by combining home-based business opportunities and local community enterprize to create  “community-building” networks that are designed for the people by the people, who share our vision and principles and join one of our local Networks to participate. With an entry level subscription of $5 per week, per person, it would be difficult to understand why any citizen who was genuinely interested in improving their health and income would not want to help bring it about. Christchurch is where our first pilots will be launched. Who do you know that might learn more about the opportunity and perhaps participate?  Text your name and email to  021 178 3337 and I will get you some information. Follow instructions carefully as rewards points may apply.  Enjoy good things.

    Vision: No poor and no crime among us.

     

     

    #1699785
    Profile photo of CriticCritic
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    Member since: June 6, 2011
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 1217
    Critic

    Sooo just back to repeating the same lines are you jens?

    If your turd way can get anywhere it is going to need a firm foundation on which to build.
    When I say “Firm” I mean “having a solid, almost unyielding surface or structure” so I do not mean “a business organization” I mean “LAWS” every agreement one enters into has a “Foundation in Law” every contract every title to ownership etc and so that Foundation needs our support to become impervious to the spinning’s of idiots and opportunists alike- We usually call that Adherence to Rule of Law.

    Until “THAT” Foundation is stable and secure you are wasting your time trying to sell silk purses or tatty sows ears that you believe to be safe without a credible legal foundation in place.

    Why anyone would need to purchase your tatty sows ears or the silk purses you spin from them at our age….I have no idea
    At my age I have either already put my feet up or have had in place a plan to do so with (cheap electricity) cheers

    Perhaps you place a little much importance on material things…. have you been in the habit of trying to impress a material girl?
    …you might be a bit old for that now aye? 🙂

    turd path

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    #1699798
    Profile photo of jensjens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
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    jens

    Critic  – but is not the  wealth ownership creative  debts and taxes (re)paying  “middle class”  the  bulk of our population and the very  foundation of a  private property based  democracy  – which now  needs   strengthening to prevent  the  country  slipping into widening  property-less poverty   because  of  having  attempted  to raise  (the perception of) welfare by financing it  increasingly by  credit  creation  rather than by increased saving and investment ?

    Yes,  the middle class spokesman  in your illustration is  right in saying  “shut up” to the dishonest sarcasm that can only  come from an austerity,  responsibilities and taxes  evading proletarian mentality which expects  a right to share  in  middle   class (property owning)  prosperity  without participating  in middle class austerity, responsibilities and  risks in achieving  property or capital ownership.

    #1699852
    Profile photo of CriticCritic
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    Critic

    But jens the risks you and your thieving mates took in stealing interests in property off real kiwi’s is that you lot were either prepared to break the law by criminal activities intended to secure a pecuniary advantage for ……… capitalists (a rather large gang of them) or pushing boundaries because you lot got the impression that you could in fact be above the law if the spinners (like yourself) were any good at spinning.
    My bet is that you were a real asset to the thieving sods in your day when folk didn’t require of you- credentials for statements presented as facts but not so good now when folk like me can see right through you and your contempt for real kiwi’s…. on that note

    The repossession of stolen property (electricity)- is really easy under “claim of right”.
    First turn off the power at the mains switch then bridge or join the two heavy red wires running into the meter part…

    repo jobby 13

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    #1699905
    Profile photo of jensjens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
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    jens

    Critic, if you  don’t tell us  what I am supposed  to have been stealing by paying  all my (electricity) bills in due  course   – are you not just a(n odorous)  windbag ?

     

    #1699926
    Profile photo of CriticCritic
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    Member since: June 6, 2011
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    Critic

    if you don’t tell us what I am supposed to have been stealing by paying all my (electricity) bills in due course – are you not just a(n odorous) windbag ?

    Actually jens I am aware you are a spinner for the team however If you recall I was discussing the “risks” that you expect the working man to take or be party to- like theft or money laundering which you did support ….can you indicate exactly where I called you a thief rather than their spinner or are you just farting and blaming somebody else(again)?

    But jens the risks you and your thieving mates took in stealing interests in property off real kiwi’s

    Notice I stated….”your thieving mates” you did support the act party didn’t you with more than just wind?
    🙂

    #1699940
    Profile photo of jensjens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
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    jens

    Thanks,  critic –  quite  clever, and I accept this “purified” explanation of the statement, and that  indeed  there  are  likely to be ” thieves” among  capitalists as  well as  among non-capitalist workers in whose interests I am  “spinning” too, so as  to achieve a more  prosperous and sustainable (growing, not  declining) property owning welfare  democracy than  what we had 60 years ago.

    But does not addressing  anyone as “you and  your thieving mates” still  imply association with  theft ?

    So  who  has  stolen  what, according to  the  dictionary definition of theft ?

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Profile photo of jens jens.
    #1699942
    Profile photo of CriticCritic
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    Member since: June 6, 2011
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    Critic

    I believe it would be more appropriate to digest the sections of the Crimes Act 1961 that relate jens… here are some but check them out for yourself as the link is provided- they certainly make interesting reading 🙂

    This paragraph is from the Crimes Act 1961 () interpretations
    property includes real and personal property, and any estate or interest in any real or personal property, money, electricity, and any debt, and any thing in action, and any other right or interest

    Parties to offences

    (1)Every one is a party to and guilty of an offence who—
    (a)actually commits the offence; or
    (b)does or omits an act for the purpose of aiding any person to commit the offence; or
    (c)abets any person in the commission of the offence; or
    (d)incites, counsels, or procures any person to commit the offence.

    (2)Where 2 or more persons form a common intention to prosecute any unlawful purpose, and to assist each other therein, each of them is a party to every offence committed by any one of them in the prosecution of the common purpose if the commission of that offence was known to be a probable consequence of the prosecution of the common purpose.

    This is interesting if one considers political parties that are acting unlawfully to be an organised crimminal group …

    98A Participation in organised criminal group

    218 Matters of ownership
    (2) An owner of any property may be guilty of theft against another owner of that property.

    219 Theft or stealing

    (1) Theft or stealing is the act of,—
    (a) dishonestly and without claim of right, taking any property with intent to deprive any owner permanently of that property or of any interest in that property; or
    (b) dishonestly and without claim of right, using or dealing with any property with intent to deprive any owner permanently of that property or of any interest in that property after obtaining possession of, or control over, the property in whatever manner.

    (2)An intent to deprive any owner permanently of property includes an intent to deal with property in such a manner that—
    (a) the property cannot be returned to any owner in the same condition; or
    (b) any owner is likely to be permanently deprived of the property or of any interest in the property.

    (3)In this section, taking does not include obtaining ownership or possession of, or control over, any property with the consent of the person from whom it is obtained, whether or not consent is obtained by deception.

    (4) For tangible property, theft is committed by a taking when the offender moves the property or causes it to be moved.

    220 Theft by person in special relationship

    (1) This section applies to any person who has received or is in possession of, or has control over, any property on terms or in circumstances that the person knows require the person—
    (a)to account to any other person for the property, or for any proceeds arising from the property; or
    (b) to deal with the property, or any proceeds arising from the property, in accordance with the requirements of any other person.

    (2)Every one to whom subsection (1) applies commits theft who intentionally fails to account to the other person as so required or intentionally deals with the property, or any proceeds of the property, otherwise than in accordance with those requirements.

    (3)This section applies whether or not the person was required to deliver over the identical property received or in the person’s possession or control.

    (4)For the purposes of subsection (1), it is a question of law whether the circumstances required any person to account or to act in accordance with any requirements.

    229 Criminal breach of trust

    (1)Every one is guilty of a criminal breach of trust who, as a trustee of any trust, dishonestly and contrary to the terms of that trust, converts anything to any use not authorised by the trust.

    240 Obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception

    (1)Every one is guilty of obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception who, by any deception and without claim of right,—
    (a)obtains ownership or possession of, or control over, any property, or any privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration, directly or indirectly; or
    (b)in incurring any debt or liability, obtains credit; or
    (c)induces or causes any other person to deliver over, execute, make, accept, endorse, destroy, or alter any document or thing capable of being used to derive a pecuniary advantage; or
    (d)causes loss to any other person.

    (1A)Every person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years who, without reasonable excuse, sells, transfers, or otherwise makes available any document or thing capable of being used to derive a pecuniary advantage knowing that, by deception and without claim of right, the document or thing was, or was caused to be, delivered, executed, made, accepted, endorsed, or altered.

    (2)In this section, deception means—
    (a)a false representation, whether oral, documentary, or by conduct, where the person making the representation intends to deceive any other person and—
    (i)knows that it is false in a material particular; or
    (ii)is reckless as to whether it is false in a material particular; or
    (b)an omission to disclose a material particular, with intent to deceive any person, in circumstances where there is a duty to disclose it; or
    (c)a fraudulent device, trick, or stratagem used with intent to deceive any person.

    242 False statement by promoter, etc

    (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who, in respect of any body, whether incorporated or unincorporated and whether formed or intended to be formed, makes or concurs in making or publishes any false statement with intent—
    (a)to induce any person, whether ascertained or not, to acquire any financial product within the meaning of the Financial Markets Conduct Act 2013; or
    (b)to deceive or cause loss to any person, whether ascertained or not; or
    (c)to induce any person, whether ascertained or not, to entrust or advance any property to any other person.

    (2)In this section, false statement means any statement in respect of which the person making or publishing the statement—
    (a)knows the statement is false in a material particular; or
    (b)is reckless as to whether the statement is false in a material particular.

    243 Money laundering

    (1)For the purposes of this section and sections 243A, 244 and 245,—
    act includes an omission

    conceal, in relation to property, means to conceal or disguise the property; and includes, without limitation,—
    (a)to convert the property from one form to another:
    (b)to conceal or disguise the nature, source, location, disposition, or ownership of the property or of any interest in the property

    deal with, in relation to property, means to deal with the property in any manner and by any means; and includes, without limitation,—
    (a)to dispose of the property, whether by way of sale, purchase, gift, or otherwise:
    (b)to transfer possession of the property:
    (c)to bring the property into New Zealand:
    (d)to remove the property from New Zealand

    interest, in relation to property, means—
    (a)a legal or equitable estate or interest in the property; or
    (b)a right, power, or privilege in connection with the property

    offence means an offence (or any offence described as a crime) that is punishable under New Zealand law, including any act, wherever committed, that would be an offence in New Zealand if committed in New Zealand

    proceeds, in relation to an offence, means any property that is derived or realised, directly or indirectly, by any person from the commission of the offence

    property means real or personal property of any description, whether situated in New Zealand or elsewhere and whether tangible or intangible; and includes an interest in any such real or personal property.

    (2)Subject to sections 244 and 245, every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who, in respect of any property that is the proceeds of an offence, engages in a money laundering transaction, knowing or believing that all or part of the property is the proceeds of an offence, or being reckless as to whether or not the property is the proceeds of an offence.

    (3)Subject to sections 244 and 245, every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years who obtains or has in his or her possession any property (being property that is the proceeds of an offence committed by another person)—
    (a)with intent to engage in a money laundering transaction in respect of that property; and
    (b)knowing or believing that all or part of the property is the proceeds of an offence, or being reckless as to whether or not the property is the proceeds of an offence.

    (4)For the purposes of this section, a person engages in a money laundering transaction if, in concealing any property or by enabling any person to conceal any property, that person—
    (a)deals with that property; or
    (b)assists any other person, whether directly or indirectly, to deal with that property.

    (4A)Despite anything in subsection (4), the prosecution is not required to prove that the defendant had an intent to—
    (a)conceal any property; or
    (b)enable any person to conceal any property.

    (5)In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (2) or subsection (3),—
    (a)it is not necessary for the prosecution to prove that the defendant knew or believed that the property was the proceeds of a particular offence or a particular class of offence:
    (b)it is no defence that the defendant believed any property to be the proceeds of a particular offence when in fact the property was the proceeds of another offence.

    #1699973
    Profile photo of jensjens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
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    jens

    Thanks critic  for all this legal information.

    But regardless which way it  is applied and  functions, it  does not alter the  basic physical  truth under  whatever  legislation imaginable, that the only fair and egalitarian  way  upwards  for all is in participation in saving, investment  and  wealth ownership by all.

    Let us  focus on the pros and  cons on the most agreeable  ways of  achieving that –   and  not  waste  time on  debatable  legal obscurities and details of  marginal importance and interest.

    #1699975
    Profile photo of don021don021
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    Member since: May 15, 2012
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 1618
    don021

    jens I fully agree with you that saving is the only way forward to a happy retirement, but the difficulty is that most are led astray by adverising, or bad habits, to spend, spend, spend. I was a saver and now in retirement I have no financial concerens at all, certainly not wealthy but costs of living or enjoying retirement is no problem.

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