During the breeding season, a female fish will lay her eggs, and then the male comes along and fertilises them. So, theoretically, it can be said that the roe is NOT a living living specimen of the fish until AFTER the male has "done his duty".
On the other hand, for a baby to be conceived, it is not possible for the father to come along after half an hour, or a day or two, or nine weeks, or the current three months, in order to fertilise the egg. It could, conceivably be said that the egg, or the sperm, on their own, are not a human being. But they DO have the "potential" to become a HUMAN baby. In fact they will NEVER become anything else.
And, unlike the fish, the father HAS to be there AT THE POINT OF CONCEPTION. At that VERY moment, when the sperm and egg join up. I do not know exactly how long it takes for the sperm to find the egg, but that is irrelevant. It won't be a long time. But neither will develop until they are joined And from THAT time on, it IS a human baby. As yet undeveloped, as Joybel said, but a human baby nonetheless.
And as Mona said, to tamper with it, abort it, IS MURDER.
This is not P. C. but that does not change anything.
I do not have any links, but there are enough scans around, where they have filmed footage during abortions, that shows the foetus/baby desperately trying to avoid the instruments being used to kill and remove it. Even at six/seven weeks.
There is NO doubt at all that abortion IS murder. And this conviction has absolutely nothing to do with my beliefs. It far precedes my belief in God. It is just common sense logic.
Abortionists would argue that the foetus is not human until three months after conception. Could anyone please explain to me then, at WHAT point, and by WHAT process, does it "become" human ? And HOW can you tell that this 'piece of tissue" has, SUDDENLY, become human ? Or did it maybe take a day or two ? And, taking this to logical conclusions, is there ANY evidence or data that maybe shows that if a foetal change from this "piece of tissue" to a human baby comes early or late, that there is any noticeable difference in the development or health of the baby ? Or his/her mental stability ?
I would be interested to know.
There simply is NO moral or ethical justification for abortion.
Belladonna has said, and I quote
"No woman should be forced to have an unwanted abortion." Agreed
"No woman should be forced to continue with an unwanted pregnancy"
Agreed.
But, what about the natural law of cause and effect ? In other words, WHAT caused this "unwanted pregnancy" ? (And let us be clear that here I am not talking about rape, that is a different situation ) It is caused by the man AND woman indulging in sex. So, both parties consented to this, so, both parties are aware that it can result in pregnancy. So, both parties must shoulder the responsibility for the act. And, let's face it, there are so MANY forms of contraception around these days, that there IS NO excuse for an unwanted pregnancy.
Rape IS a different situation. I do sympathise with the woman here, it must be very difficult to find that you are pregnant in this situation, and realise that it must take a LOT of courage to continue the pregnancy. But, it IS possible, ( I know of one case where this was done. The girl was fifteen, and had a very supportive family, who helped her through the situation, and raised the baby as just another much loved member of the family. But that IS an exception.)
And then there is the case, but this situation is rare, where the mother's life is endangered. Personally, I WOULD choose to save the mother in that case.
There IS no excuse for abortion/child murder.

Gidday

"Squirter
Is it a living human being if it cannot survive on it's own?"

At what age can a baby survive on it's own. Some bloody teenagers couldn't.

Just hours after conception when the single cell first divides, there is all the DNA of a different person.

Whoa! That clip spoke for itself really!! Totally miraculous!!!

Yes it is a miracle,isn't it.No matter how the human fetus starts out,it is always the end product that is astounding to me.Humans are a miracle,from beginning to end.And to think girls,we who have suffered through labour,now grin quietly to ourselves,and say been there done that,made that,or built one like that,as you sit and watch the World walk on by.

"The question is if you are going to draw a line to say this is an acceptable thing to do to prevent a child being born but anything on the other side of the line is unaccetable where do you draw that line."


And that's the grey area Hero - do we make it a crime for a man to ejaculate,except when he's intending to begin a pregnancy? Do we imprison women who menstruate,who miscarry?



"Both sperm and egg carry HUMAN DNA. A human sperm cannot fertilize any egg from any other animal. The human egg cannot accept sperm from any other animal."

Well...yes of course they're human Joybel - I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise,& unless we're talking about another species entirely,they'll be human. With potential to eventually become a fully developed human,capable of surviving outside the womb - but not yet at that stage.


"And as Mona said, to tamper with it, abort it, IS MURDER. "


I don't agree Chris (but you knew that!:green & think this must be something everyone has to decide for themselves.


"Abortionists would argue that the foetus is not human until three months after conception."


NO,they wouldn't Chris. But those who are pro choice would say that at a very early stage,an embryo/foetus doesn't have a fully developed nervous system & is unable to survive outside the womb.



"But, what about the natural law of cause and effect ? In other words, WHAT caused this "unwanted pregnancy" ? (And let us be clear that here I am not talking about rape, that is a different situation ) It is caused by the man AND woman indulging in sex.And, let's face it, there are so MANY forms of contraception around these days, that there IS NO excuse for an unwanted pregnancy.."


From memory I understand that the rate of those opting for abortion as a result of rape is around 1%. The problem with that is that,as you may know a good many rapes are never reported - if they were,that might very well bump those numbers up somewhat.

And we do not have a 100% safe & effective contraceptive,not one. Condoms break,the pill fails - & that's without considering the damage some forms of birth control does to a woman's body.
Frankly,I think we should be putting more time into research & development of birth control.

Hero....

"Not going to get into the religious arguments too complex and varied even if I do understand the position of catholic church and their 1997 statement"

Why bring it up in the first place then!!

Cheers.

Belladonna, you STILL have not answered my question. At WHAT point does this "piece of tissue" become human. ? ? ?
Because, from the very moment it does become human, anyone who plans an abortion is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. I can not put it any plainer than that !
And as Joybel said, BOTH sperm AND egg are living entities, life does not begin, it is continued. And, as she said, it has ALL the necessary "ingredients" to BE human.
When I prepare my garden, I put in the seeds. Nothing on the surface prepares anyone for what will eventually spring up/develop, but it is a garden nonetheless, and I would be very upset if someone poured weedkiller over it. O K, nothing shows yet, but it has the POTENTIAL to be a beautiful garden, doesn't it ? Everything is there. So, IT IS A GARDEN.
Joybel, 12 an excellent post.

We are not forcing you or yours to have abortions or asking you to compromise your beliefs. We respect your right to hold those views. We would prefer no woman ever felt she had to choose to abort her pregnancy. We would prefer every child was a wanted child being raised in a loving and stable home.

Until we have perfect birth control or complete abstinence and our family lives become predictable and stable, there will be women who truly believe they cannot carry their pregnancy through to term.

In which case, we prefer that they are able to access a safe, professional, compassionate, affordable termination close to home and their support systems and don't try to terminate the pregnancy themselves, (hot baths, gin, running up and down stairs, knitting needles, crochet hooks, drano douches, you name it, some poor woman tried it).

Gidday

Aint it great how the pro murder group deliberately avoid the real issues Chris.

The simple fact is that as soon as the first cells divide there is the DNA of a new person and it therefore is a new human being.

Sure at that stage they could not suvive on their own but then nor can a baby at 6 or 8 months so the Kahui twins were no different to babies being aborted. But they say that the new person cannot survive out of it"s mothers womb, so what, they can be transplaned into another womb no trouble.

By the way, at the other end of life, when you caint live on your own then you should be in full agreement to be bopped of rather that get the rest home subsidies.



Now that would save the country plenty Eh!

"Belladonna, you STILL have not answered my question. At WHAT point does this "piece of tissue" become human. ? ? ?"


Actually...I did. In an earlier post. Unless we're talking about a different species,then of COURSE its human & no one is disputing that.



"become human, anyone who plans an abortion is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. I can not put it any plainer than that !"


And that's where we disagree. In the early stages (& most abortions here are done then) rather than 'murder' it really is just the removal of tissue which has the p_o_t_e_n_t_i_a_l to become a fully developed human at a later stage.
Perhaps because you're not a woman & cannot know how it might feel to have several small children,perhaps be financially in difficulty,perhaps even with an unreliable partner who's sometimes out of work, being fully stretched coping with it - & then to have an unplanned pregnancy.
Its difficult I think,for a man to fully appreciate & understand.
A pregnancy is not just 9 months of being pregnant & then going through labour,a pregnancy is also another 15-20 years of being a parent & I think that's sometimes overlooked by the right to life movement.

Women are not just incubators. We have the legal right to abortion.

And regardless of how much the right to life brigade complain about that,I'm not sure even they would want a return to the bad old days when women died from either self aborting or having a back street abortion - or would they? Is this not so much about being anti abortion as it is about control?
No one's trying to force anyone to have an abortion against their will,but the right to lifers are happy to force women to continue with an unwanted pregnancy.
And when we look at some of the things now trying to be set up in the US - such as the Texas sonogram, it looks very like power & control.
And then there was the law which they attempted to bring in whereby any woman who had a miscarriage would have been taken in for questioning by police - just in case she'd 'done something to cause it' like tripping over while walking down stairs or whatever else they could come up with. The cruelty of such a thing speaks volumes.



"The simple fact is that as soon as the first cells divide there is the DNA of a new person and it therefore is a new human being. "

Basic biology OJ,no one disputes that its human. NOT however,a fully developed human.

Basic biology OJ,no one disputes that its human. NOT however,a fully developed human.



but they come on here an waffle on about poly ticks

Are pollies animal,vegetable or mineral.?Or just stray pieces of tissue,that has evolved into a politician.