Our aim is to be your guide to living life to the full. The keys to staying vital and active for longer are within our grasp! Read more...
Become a GrownUp and join our Community. Stay up to date with our weekly newsletter, discuss topics with other members, grab some great member-only offers and so much more.
Select the radio station you would like to listen to live.
Member since 09 Dec 2006
Member from Te Awamutu
I personally come back to.., "Thou Shall NOT Kill."Having said that, if a person is "incurable", and in pain, I believe that if they do slip away, don't, if they so desire, resusitate them. That is a different thing altogether. But to actively "pull the plug" IS a form of murder, and must be treated as such.This has nothing to do with my beliefs, more with my upbringing. The other thing is, that I strongly believe that for EVERY ill on this earth, there IS a cure. Nature is very well balanced. And HOW do we know that, whatever the illness someone is suffering from, that science won't find a cure maybe a few days or weeks, after that relative was "assisted" to die ?Would we not suffer a real guilt feeling ? If not, then all I can say is that that "assistance" was purely for selfish reasons.
Member since 28 Oct 2006
Member from Eltham
Sorry to disagree with you Chris and I do know your beliefs and I wouldn't put you down for holding on to them but I look at it this way, it's my body, if it don't work and it's causing me pain then it's my right to do away with it. It's only murder if it's done without my permission.
Bryan, Fair enough. What I wrote is what I believe. And as I said, this is what I was brought up to believe, long before I became a Christian. That phase merely reinforced what I already believed. But, this is something that we all must decide for ourselvesThe Bible quotation is part of that reinforcement. (And dare I add that my stand on abortion followed the same path.)
Member since 02 Nov 2006
Member from Linwood
Are there mitigating factors in your reasoning Chris, like with suicidal victims being not quite in a wholesome frame of mind. A person suffering from indignity and enormous pain is not wholly of a sound mind in my belief and I do not believe it is our place to judge. Do we perhaps allow ourselves to be co-erced by so called men of God. Is a priests interpretation of the Bible truer than a laymans, after all a priest is only a man after all.
Should those in pain have the right to painkilling drugs or should they in Gods love suffer horribly to the end?
Joybel, "Is a priest's interpretation of the Bible truer than a layman's, after all, a priest is only a layman after all" You've had a Catholic upbringing have you not ? Then I assume you still have a Bible, Look up Exodus 20, v 13.Is there any confusion as to the meaning of that verse ? I think not. What comes after "Thou shall not kill ? Does it say "EXCEPT" in the case of illness ? or maybe mental disability ?, or maybe physical deformity ? or any other possible cause ?NO...., In my Bible, the only thing that comes after "Thou shall not kill" is a FULL STOP. That is the end of that verse. Period.Therefore, for a Christian, euthanasia is not an option. But, like I said, if the person is in pain, or incurable, if they do slip away, we are not obliged to "resusitate" them. That is not pulling the pin, that is letting nature take it's course.This, by the way, is MY personal opinion.And I will add that this is where the Catholic Church falls short, in that from what I understand,( and if I am wrong I take it back) it discourages people from actually reading the Bible for themselves and seeing what the Word does say.
Member since 23 Nov 2009
Member from Stratford
The Old Testament also says, (women) adulterers shall be stoned to death, as shall witches, people who 'touch Mt Sinai', women who do not bleed on their marriage beds (if their husbands hate them).
God tested the faith and obedience of any number of people with failure rewarded by death (Lot's wife) and demanded the sacrifice of at least two sons, his own being one of them.
Plenty of killing going on in the Old Testament - especially of women oddly.
I guess we all pick and choose our beliefs according to what we feel comfortable with and what meets our needs.
Christ, as he was dying on the cross, was spoken to by a felon who was also being punished by death. Jesus reccognised his remorse and said to him, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise" Not the kingdom of God. Paradise. Forgiveness is the key, otherwise why bother?
The Ten Commandments that Moses came off the Mt. with were specifically for the Israelites who were idolators and steeped in wickedness. Not one was allowed enter into the promised land except those born on the 40 year trail.
Man has lost the true message which Jesus gave his life for which is based on love and forgiveness, and instead has hung on to the Moses concept. No wonder the world is a mess. War is still killing and the same God is asked to save both sides.
On the cross Jesus cried out to God. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" Church ministers are set up to be prison wardens and believe too much in their own righteousness. I have no problems with however a person chooses to quit but am mindful that Insurance won't be paid out fof suicide. Tough, eh!
I'm not sure how to respond as I see this as a "Moral" question rather than a "Religious" one. However I know Chris will disagree and say it's both.
I would like to put the following points NOT at your beliefs but in general. When people quote the bible they tend to only quote those passages that agree with what they believe and miss all the rest as the book is so long they rely on the fact that not everyone is conversant with it.
They push the fact that there is a "Loving" God, yet he allows suffering and wars all over the world.
They also say he is "All Powerful", yet he allows suffering and wars all over the world.
I agree with Arandar so lets just keep to discussing the "Right to a pain free end". In fact that doesn't have to include suicide but access to an adequate supply of pain killing drugs.
Well said, Bryan (and Joybel).
I would far rather discuss the right to a pain & fear-free end and believe that is now achievable given the progress in medicine and palliative care.
I think that there is inequality in access around New Zealand but don't know for sure. I'm sure others here do know what is available in their areas.
I think this is an important area for resources to be invested; in the research and development of the very best practices from around the world and the provision of palliative care services and properly trained providers across the entire country.
It would mean a change in the law as it stands and by the time a dozen discussioms and the paper signed happens the patient could have missed out. It may be too hard to police. Anyone wanting to die for whatever reason can gather the means.
Unfortunately, that's not always true, Joybel. Accidents happen, illness can strike suddenly and debilitatingly; we can be made instantly helpless.
Other countries have overcome the difficulties you outline. Certainly, there are risks of abuse and misuse but they can probably be minimised.
Actually, when I think about it, the vulnerable are being abused and misused, physically, emotionally, financially, by those who should be caring most for them, as they live their daily lives. Perhaps that too plays into the sense that 'this life is not worth living longer' and should be part of the discussion.
It does seem that there are many reasons why people want to end their lives and illness, pain, indignity and fear are not all that we should be considering?
And when an old man or lady is found floating in the sea or a river, it makes no waves at all. A mention, no name and a coronors inquiry. Yet who would know if there was foul play. As long as the water in the lungs is not bath water it will be a "while of unsound mind verdict"
To post a comment on this discussion please log in or register