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The "Causes" of escalating Poverty in NZ

Discussions News & Current Affairs (excluding Politics) The "Causes" of escalating Poverty in NZ

This topic contains 247 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of drlivingstone drlivingstone > 7 days ago.

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  • #1643062
    Profile photo of TedE
    TedE
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    Member since: May 6, 2006
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 1926

    Thank you SirNigek” …, reporting in the paper/news there are homeless solo mums with 6-9 kids? Or were they just some used as an example for publicity?

    That’s so true, thank you for pointing it out.

    The problems started with Sir Roger and his “there is no alternative!” as learned from the Chicago School and adopted so heartily by his |Government under the banner of don’t give time for reactyion, don’t blink go for it in the same manner as the Chicago boys did in the south American countries starting with the ousting of the Allende Govt. The history is there to read. The latest events of the shock doctrine are are shown in the aftermath of Katrina and the GFC.

    NZ does not need to be this way and it is the direct result of “greed is good” we adopted with Rogernomics and the Rogergnomes.

    I like this thought about continuing with the current policies:
    Fairfax‚Äôs Andrew Gunn gave a biting satirical summary of National‚Äôs election pitch: ‚ÄúA story of hospitals so successful that they have to turn away patients. A story of food-banks brimming with donations from caring New Zealanders. A story of mostly swimmable rivers, and innovative Kiwis who convert cars into bedrooms. We can‚Äôt risk all that!‚ÄĚ

    TedE - Papakura -

    #1643114
    Profile photo of Critic
    Critic
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    Member since: June 6, 2011
    Topics: 10
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    Sorry Jens you obviously didn’t read the title to this thread… It states the “causes” of escalating poverty in NZ.

    In discussing the “causes” we are not really targeting the discussion around potential solutions and some of us would prefer to isolate the “causes” before focusing upon the symptoms which only you seem to believe can be resolved by saving rather than spending … money.

    That you can only suggest one method of coming up with funding without any clear idea of what you would do with the funding to eliminate poverty (as you profess) or how much funding would be required suggests that your chatter on the subject is more of a political fantasy of the type we become accustomed to around elections.

    whatever the inevitable causes of poverty ‚Äď war, corruption, natural calamities….

    From this it appears to me that you have few ideas about the actual causes but we know you believe that saving money will resolve all problems…. (how the money saved is spent to achieve the desired results seems to be irrelevant)

    This is one of the reasons I started this new thread targeting the conversation upon the “causes” of escalating poverty ….

    It was suggested that some parents were not prepared for parenthood or hadn’t saved up but if you recall I posted the numbers of registered births at 60,000 odd So we are only discussing a potential percentage of the 120,000 individuals responsible out of the 6,000,000 or so People that use the resources and infrastructure each year- which we fund.

    I find it difficult to believe that a large percentage of parents are incompetent and suggest that the lack of accountability and incompetence of about 120 people in wellington per year has a greater influence upon the escalation of poverty than the 120,000 People that contributed to the production of the registered births for 2016 (or any other year)…. Fortunately the rest of us have about 20 odd years to ensure the infrastructure is in place for them unlike the instant requirement for infrastructure which the large number of immigrants (1000 to 1500) PER WEEK.. burden us with.

    The thing is …. if it becomes obvious that the causes of escalating poverty are a direct result of (for example) the criminal activities or incompetence of those serving in positions of trust …. then it is the criminal activities or incompetence that needs to be addressed not having everyone save money up to make up for criminal activities as that would be unreasonable

    #1643136
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    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
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    Yes critic ¬†– ¬†if we had slavery where the master has ¬†absolute power over what ¬†you have to do ¬†for ¬†what ¬†reward, and that reward is ¬†very poor so the ¬†master ¬†can live in powerful or wasteful opulence, then we can talk about ¬†the ¬†degree of ¬†poverty as a direct result of ethical criminality or incompetence by the ¬†absolute ¬†monopoly ¬†capitalist of ¬†whatever kind of ¬†tyranny ¬† – govt., corporate, tribal ¬†or ¬†individual ¬†–

    and under  our  free  democracy  you are  entitled to  identify the  culprits and their deeds, and to propose correctives.

    While you ¬†have the freedom to ¬†do that, life ¬†goes on even under an incompetent or power hungry ¬†tyranny, and ¬† poverty among the ¬†people is ¬†bound to ¬†escalate the ¬†more the profits of ¬†productivity ¬†are either ¬†consumed without ¬†saving anything ¬†for ¬†investment in wealth ¬†creation and ¬†maintenance, or invested in ultimately ¬†unprofitable “white ¬†elephants”.

    So, dear  critic Рin addition  to poverty escalating  disasters and  identified mismanagement and criminality,  the biggest and most persistent poverty escalating  factor  under  ALL CIRCUMSTANCES (unless  you  come up with an example  where it does not apply) Рis the  voluntary evasion of  Р  or  discouraged  or prohibited Рact  of  saving for  wealth  ownership for emergency reserves and  investment  in profitable productivity and trading  with  more  opportunities and  bargaining power  than  with  just  your  own  labouring capacity alone, like a  deprived, poor  slave under a monopoly capitalist.

    #1643156
    Profile photo of drlivingstone
    drlivingstone
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    Member since: October 22, 2006
    Topics: 295
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    Poverty is the absence of all human rights…. the frustrations,hostility and anger generated by abject poverty cannot sustain peace in any society’Mohammad Yunus Nobel Peace Prize winner 2006

    Dr.Livingstone
    Peoples Republic Of Christchurch

    #1643197
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    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
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    Yes Dr. Livingstone – poverty is the ¬†absence of ¬†especially the human ¬†right of wealth ownership ¬†creation ¬†for ¬†yourself, ¬†as it is ¬†under any sort of ¬†enforced ¬†monopoly ¬†capitalism in which ¬†you are ¬†deprived of that ¬†human right ¬†–

    or in ¬†the ¬†ignorant ¬†neglect or ¬†deliberate ¬†evasion ¬†of ¬†the ¬†right ¬†of wealth ownership creation for ¬†yourself under the illusion, ¬†that ¬†the ¬†momentary ¬†pleasure of ¬†consuming all the income and wealth available ¬†is your “right for prosperity” ¬†in a sustainable ¬†way.

    This “right” ¬†to prosperity ¬†amounts to ¬†nothing ¬†if ¬†there is no ¬†wealth ¬†beyond ¬†what is ¬†daily ¬†consumed “hand-to-mouth”.

    Dr. Livingstone,  do not those  who  deliberately prefer the primitive capital-less,  hand-to-mouth  way of  life actually  dissociate  themselves  from any right  (or even desire?)  to benefit  from  capitalism, as an  imagined  corruption  and undesirable break(?)  from  exclusively  direct interdependence  with  nature ?

    #1643224
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    arandar
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    Member since: November 23, 2009
    Topics: 54
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    And another reread bites the dust, tra la,
    Another thread bites the dust.

    ūüĆäArandarūüŹĄūüŹĹ‚Äć‚ôÄÔłŹ

    #1643231
    Profile photo of drlivingstone
    drlivingstone
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    Member since: October 22, 2006
    Topics: 295
    Replies: 34071

    Jens Sorry for umpteenth time in nine years ¬†you and I aren,t on the same page on poverty issues.We will have to agree to disagree once again.Playing the denigration & blame game not productive.Have a happy life. Heres hoping Jacinda and progressive parties get an opportunity ¬† to invest in¬†all our people.Resolving issues like poverty, homelessness and affordable homes ¬†will take real leadership and a comprehensive approach to stop foreign speculators from buying existing homes,closing tax loopholes and building more houses..The government I want for to give hope to my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren ¬†is one ¬†that aspires with us for all New Zealanders to earn more than the minimum wage Have a happy life ūüėÄ

     

    Dr.Livingstone
    Peoples Republic Of Christchurch

    #1643296
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    Member since: June 6, 2011
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    Yes critic ‚Äď if we had slavery where the master has absolute power over what you have to do for what reward, and that reward is very poor so the master can live in powerful or wasteful opulence, then we can talk about …

    Hi Jens … this is not the political thread where we talk about or speculate about “ifs” or abstracts… we are talking about “causes” here…

    The problems started with Sir Roger and his ‚Äúthere is no alternative!‚ÄĚ

    Would be very close to accurate .. although I believe sewer roger was merely a pawn and didn’t have the intelligence to mount a “coup d’etat” of the nature of the 1984 one which was consummated by shonky lawyers like graham and palmer

    The thing is Ted …. prior to privatisation … The government did not own the investments it scripted from being what was once under the stewardship of Ministries and yet that is where the “THEFT” occurred.

    From there… The corporations are simply laundries or instruments to conceal or transfer our interests in property as described in the Crimes Act 1961 section 243

    So the Crown (corporation and/or the government) behaved as if they were above the law all with the assistance of gpalmer who is still sniffing around behind the scenes there making sure nobody has a good clue including douglas.

    Act supporters or supporters of douglas (like jens) would urge folk to look in other directions with all sorts of abstract nonsense to have you focusing away from the importance of the law in any discussion about ownership ….. because Jens knows that the solution to stealing property is to take the property back (not saving up for it)… so making the Crown and the nz government look as silly as deserved or as silly as douglas (the failed pig farmer).

    Of course having no interest in politics I see the ownership of generations of nz landers investments in infrastructure to be an issue of legal entitlement and section 243 of the Crimes Act 1961 defines legal interests in property reasonably well note “rights, powers and privileges” all qualify as being interests in property although they are seemingly intangible they still qualify as property and as such can be (and have been) stolen…. by asses which should now be on the line.

    I hope it is clear that although I have no intentions of voting for or influencing government …. I do have an interest in the repossession of stolen property and I would no longer entrust the NZ government or the Crown as being representatives of a competent or capable Steward.

    #1643297
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    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
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    Dr. Livingstone ¬†– ¬†the political possibilities on the ¬†pros and ¬†cons of sustainable ¬†prevention ¬†of poverty ¬†escalation and its ¬†elimination ¬†altogether ¬†can freely be discussed on the ¬†“Third Way” thread.

    If permanently ¬†sustainable ¬†results ¬†are to be achieved also for ¬†our ¬†descendants, we must deal with ¬†economic ¬†realities in a different way from the ¬†“laissez faire” libertarian or excessively wealth ¬†redistributing and economically ¬†stagnating ways ¬†of the past –

    then I cannot agree  to  disagree with you as  long as  we have  different understandings on the  basic, universal  economics  of wealth creation and maintenance.

    Because reality  has  to be known before a problem can be  tackled with a hope of success,  it is not denigrating  anyone  to become  aware  of the fact  that  someone is  poor because of  not having  thought or  managed  to  save  and invest  anything  for  whatever  reason,  which  could  be  serious  poverty  itself.

    (My apologies for the ¬†somewhat ¬†denigrating reference to deliberate “hand-to-mouth” hedonistic ¬†profligacy and evasion of prudence ¬†– ¬†or ideological opposition – ¬†by those who could ¬†have afforded ¬†to save, but ¬†did not ¬†do it.)

    Yes Dr Livingstone – everything ¬†you ¬†hope from Jacinda’s ¬†govt. ¬†to be done ¬†will be economically helpful – and ultimately ¬†sustainable ¬†also by and ¬†for ¬†our grandchildren if ¬†her ¬†govt.’s ¬†consumption ¬†expenditure is kept ¬†below ¬†the ¬†taxable profits ¬†of the ¬†increasing ¬† savings and ¬†wealth creation directly ¬†initiated ¬†by her govt. ¬†through resumed ¬†NZ Super Fund ¬†contributions –

    including ¬†the ¬†govt. revenue at an¬†approved and sustainable taxation rate ¬†from all the taxable ¬†profits ¬†of all earnings ¬†from ¬†individual ¬†work and private enterprise –

    for ¬†keeping ¬†up a margin ¬†for the ¬†continuation of an ¬†adequate ¬†rate of capitalism ¬†(i.e. saving and investment) to (relatively) perpetuate the ¬†sustainability ¬†of ¬†prosperity ¬†by and for all ¬†–

    and for  our  descendants  to  continue with  this innovation as long as poverty  remains an  undesirable possibility.

     

     

     

    #1647994
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    Critic
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    Member since: June 6, 2011
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    Isn’t this interesting…. woohoo

    The First paragraph stating the “primary” meaning

    Privatization, also spelt privatisation (in English), has several meanings. Primarily, it is the process of the “Theft and Laundering” [1] of the Peoples Interests in various Properties(infrastructure) accumulated as the result of the investments of many Generations (eg..In New Zealand) Interests which were formerly held under the “Stewardship” of Ministries, were laundered to become the Property of newly scripted Artificial Identities/Corporations(laundries or instruments of laundering)in which the… People have “No Interest” (as scripted by those serving in fiduciary relationships to the People)

    Sounds like family

    ūüôā ūüôā ūüôā ūüôā ūüôā ūüôā

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