- March 14, 2017 at 10:10 am #1608838
Thanks for this little show, TedE – not too long nor complicated, and raising the question:
Will all the machinery we create to serve us perhaps actually “enslave” us?
Well, if you consider the inescapable austerity needed for lavish capital creation and (machinery) maintenance as “slavery”, there is truth in that in our desire for “free” income we commit ourselves to the “slavery” of capitalism, because without the latter, there is no machinery, education nor anything beside a hand-to-mouth existence on what nature provides within certain not unlimited quantities.
In view of this, according to my understanding the whole discussion between Yanis and Noam boils down to the choice between:
Predominant social capitalism, or a mixed economy with all citizens participating directly to some extent also in the “austerity” (responsibilities) and benefits of capital creation, ownership and management.
On the economic level the latter seems to be more fair and effective, and that can be questioned and the pros and cons of it are open for discussion.March 14, 2017 at 11:33 am #1608854
CriticMemberMember since: June 6, 2011
New drugs Jens?
On the economics of poverty elimination – critic’s long standing preoccupation with repossession of stolen property is a legal side-issue, because it does not address the property, wealth, capital and prosperity creation process.
Please enlighten us all about the “economics of Poverty” (in your opinion) because In my opinion the only economics relative to poverty is “The Cost of living”
If the cost of living is made artificially high because some group of Criminals decided to make a fast buck (plus GST) out of others investments which now adds unnecessarily “to that cost of living”… it is hardly a side issue as you state…. [and you may well be trying to sideline the importance of the legalities because you support a political party (act) that was or is complicit in the criminal activities you are aware of yet condone]
You state it should be sidelined ….
because it does not address the property, wealth, capital and prosperity creation process
And that is where your argument fails simply because you want to discuss the economy not the victims of that economy or the inequalities perpetuated by that economy which ensure the failure of some to meet the “COST OF LIVING” ….
The return of aforementioned “STOLEN PROPERTIES” would result in some serious reductions to the costs of using electricity, water, building materials, etc etc
How can you not see the obvious jens?
like when you state….
On the basis of the latest postings as above, we seem to have reached agreement with critic, i.e. critic has not refuted it so far – that for the fairest spread of prosperity in a mixed economy – it would be desirable for ALL of the people to have a direct say – i.e. management and responsibility power – through a direct, identified and certificated personal share ownership of the national wealth.
You are fully aware that I do not agree with you as I posted
Can you imagine how silly things would become if you needed to have a personalized interest in your local public toilet before you were able to use it? … It could be said to be a matter of “Equity” but it is really dismissive of the meaning of “Humane” (if you get my drift)
Clearly you didn’t get my drift- because you would rather have your name on the ownership to the exclusion of others and the only possible reason is so that you can charge that poor bugger that NEEDS to go just like an opportunistic capitalist does …. one of the causes of poverty is because of the fostering of such stupidity –
Many investments owned through communal ownership – such as public toilets – deliver only comfort but not necessarily profits – AND FREQUENTLY REQUIRE CONSTANT INVESTMENT OR MAINTENANCE SUBSIDIES FROM US THE PEOPLE THROUGH THE TAXATION SYSTEM.
Jens… Clearly you find maintaining your own toilet to be expensive and costly and you are entitled to pay somebody else to clean it if that is your choice…
Public toilets are there for the mutual interest, This is OUR HOME they take care of some health and bio-security issues in the mutual interests and ensure the laws regarding exposing ones self in public are not some form of inhumane capitalist entrapment if you really need to take a dump…
We all contribute towards that maintenance jens which makes the burden very small for any one individual there is no sane reason to have everyone’s name carved on the door it is “expensive lunacy” jens.
Please take that (“expensive lunacy”) as being my opinion on the necessity of personalizing interests in mutual investments- either way it does not address Poverty
Perhaps you should reevaluate your priorities?March 15, 2017 at 5:59 pm #1609084
Critic – since a “have nothing” is poor in both low income poor and high income wealthy countries, poverty is defined by the non-ownership of wealth in any situation, whereas relative poverty defined through the cost of living reflects only a relationship between spending potential and income.
So, beside wealth ownership it is income that is the more important factor that defines relative poverty in a wealthy country where a high cost of living is actually inseparable from a higher living standard.
But to raise earning power at an accelerated rate, it so happens that besides working (profitably) harder or longer, the accumulation (saving) of capital and its profitable investment are actually the basically needed and most effective factors for both more jobs and increasing incomes and wealth ownership creation.
I leave it at that for this time, it is 6o’clock news time.March 16, 2017 at 10:07 am #1609173
drlivingstoneMemberMember since: October 22, 2006
“Poverty” Heartbroken describes for me the images of the sufferings of the people of Fukushima or Somalia as much as my haunted feelings of helplessness identifying with all the other humanitarian crises of hunger and starvation everyday on our screens.Secure in our “comfortable” lives we have become immune to the suffering of others.This is a poverty of spirit is it not where we feel less compassion for others and more concerned for our own neediness or poverty.To be in poverty is to lack lifes basic necessities.To live and flourish we need to have those met.Poverty of spirit is experienced with anxiety, fear, depression hopelessness over ones circumstances. To overcome this state of being we have to reset our goals and priorities surely as poverty of spirit resides inside each one of us
Peoples Republic Of ChristchurchMarch 18, 2017 at 7:07 pm #1609432
Most – or at least a substantial part – of poverty in Africa is due to overpopulation in relation to traditional gardening practices in the suitable lands available, with holdings of fertile land plots having become too small for further subdivision – and there is not enough education and other capital being created for widening the economic base.
So Dr. Livingstone – would it not make sense that if we shared some of our prosperity with them, we should also help them to get established in some different form of capitalism beside just hand-to-mouth gardening, because if we don’t – would we not have to share more and more of our prosperity for their increasing population ?
If you agree wit that, then would that not also make sense to get our poor engaged in productivity increasing and poverty reducing capitalism?
Is that not much more effective altruism than just giving the poor charity – (UBI?) forever ?
March 21, 2017 at 11:52 am #1609822
- This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Jens.
TedEMemberMember since: May 6, 2006
Is this NZ the way you want it?
Does it have to be run this way?
Is capitalism and the current neo-liberal economic theory the way to go?
Poverty is defined by different people in different ways depending on their outlook and general attitude to the well being of others. Defining poverty in NZ by comparing it to Bangladesh (or other countries and populations is not helpful as there are so many variables).
The facts are simple we have inn NZ a large and increasing section of our community who rightly or wrongly feel that they are no longer part of our community and are who feel they are not able to participate in our society as equals. Then there are those who are not able to participate because of personal difficulties such as brain damage etc who are often blamed for their disability and sidelined as a result.
I think it is helpful when discussing this with our grandchildren to get them to imagine having been brought up in a different environment that is juxtaposed with theirs and within their experience. This can lead to a far more empathetic attitude.
So for me we need to set our goals as a NZ society to ensuring that all NZ citizens can participate and feel part of our society.
TedE - Papakura -March 21, 2017 at 5:42 pm #1609881
don021MemberMember since: May 15, 2012
TedE, you envisage a perfect society where everyone has a slice of the cake, I too would like to see that eventuate but that requires mobilisation of praticipants and over hundreds of years, this has not been possible. The opportunities are there but many will not, or cannot, grasp them, prefering a slacker form of life. How do you motivate slackers? Find the answer and we have the world of equals.March 21, 2017 at 6:34 pm #1609889
kiwichickMemberMember since: May 9, 2008
I don’t think its all about “Slackers”
There just are not the jobs around like it was in our day
It must be so demoralising not being able to get a job, we were lucky never to be out of work.March 21, 2017 at 6:36 pm #1609890
kiwichickMemberMember since: May 9, 2008
Totally agree with you,NZ is not the way I would like it to be either.March 21, 2017 at 6:43 pm #1609893
gord018MemberMember since: January 11, 2012
The uncorrupted free market also known as the natural order of things will always lead to unequal outcomes for human society. Just as disease or famine take millions from the planet through starvation while others live and dine in luxury. The only way to erase poverty is through finance and to do that money has to be squeezed from some source. usually taxpayers. Western nations donate millions even billions to African nations under the guise of aid to relieve the starvation. The reality being that they are protecting their political and investment interests on that continent . the trickle down theory comes into affect when a tiny percentage reaches the so called intended goal. Here in New Zealand we see housing estates popping up on every piece of available pasture that was once a market garden. Our water is becoming more polluted and the only ones who benefit are the farmers and property speculators. The day of the total Free Market must be nearing its end . This election i will be stepping back from National unless some regulation is introduced to save our waterways and that Nick Smith is ousted from the party. WADEABLE ONLY RIVERS 👿 👿 👿
- This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by gord018.
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