- #1737474dr-whoMemberMember since: April 12, 2017
Replies: 169dr-who November 19, 2019 at 9:46 am
Thank you for that Halcyon. I shall look into that.#1737475halcyonMemberMember since: May 4, 2014
Replies: 4965halcyon November 19, 2019 at 10:36 am
Don’t be put off by the opening screen where it talks about $239 for one year. There are advantages in paying the fee but one does not have to. Just scroll down to the View all Free Courses button.
I see that The University of Waikato is offering a course on Data Mining (what ever that is) over 5 weeks with 4 hours study a week.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)#1737479paulinem November 19, 2019 at 11:35 am
We talk about death with dignity and yet allow people to linger on with absolutely no dignity whatsoever in certain conditions. Some people have a completely different attitude to the suffering of animals than they do to people. Interestingly the bible, which formed a basis for our society in the past, does not condemn suicide. In some cultures suicide was considered the honourable thing to do in certain circumstances. I know we will get a lot of information over the next twelve months and I look forward to some interesting debates. Cheers 🙂
Hero I watched my sister die at peace under hospice care I saw no suffering as I know any pain she was in was managed by medical experts in this care. Lucritia Seal ( yes I possibly spelt her name wrong ) whom started the campaign to allow euthanasia as she was medical diagnose as dying from cancer. Actually she died naturally at peace under managed Hospice palliative care, I gather surrounded by her family etc .
I find it very interesting those that talk about suffering to the end, especially as those that suggest assisted suicide ( euthanasia ) should be allowed and people like myself are mean and horrible for denying these people to be helped commit suicide. I ask these supporters of assisted suicide what medical expertise do you have to make this decision that another person should be allowed to commit suicide. ?
Hero you suggest above and talk about allowing a women to suffer by denying her an abortion is mean and horrible, but ignore the reality the human that who will suffer the most by this action is the unborn child, whom had NO choice about its existence. Hero the unborn child is RIPPED apart by the abortionist using a suction pump. Not really a nice way to die is it Hero!!!
Finally Hero you make a statement above that the bible does not condemn suicide !! Hmm to make a statement like this you would have needed to have studied the bible! You would have at least have needed to have read the bible a book of three ie the Old Testament ( Jewish religon ) Jesus teachings ( the four Gospels of Mark Matthew Luke and John ) and the New Testament with many basics o f the Christian religion.
In the later find it strange as you have said on other posts that to your thinking Christ is an imaginary individual. If you truly believe this then it is very surprising that you have read the bible cover to cover a book which is the basis of Christianity teaching! People around the globe have read and studied the bible for centuries now , I doubt if any of them would be as knowledgeable as you are for what it says and declares as there is a lot of information to take in with this large book !#1737480huiatahiMemberMember since: March 22, 2017
Replies: 1032huiatahi November 19, 2019 at 11:44 am
I ask these supporters of assisted suicide what medical expertise do you have to make this decision that another person should be allowed to commit suicide. ?
I would not/could not make that decision for anyone else….only myself if I chose to
huiatahi#1737483Hero42MemberMember since: July 18, 2008
Replies: 12145Hero42 November 19, 2019 at 12:14 pm
I don’t believe I have ever said that Jesus was an imaginary figure given that we know from historic records that he existed.
I have studied the bible as I seek an understanding of why we are here. In that study I have not found anywhere in the bible that explicitly states suicide is a sin or wrong. But please correct me if I have missed something as I am always open to correcting a misunderstanding.
You have quoted examples from your personal experience of people experiencing a peaceful death with medical supervision and the appropriate pain medication. And that does work for many people but not for everyone.
But I was referring to dignity not peace. There are many conditions whereby the people lose all dignity at the end of their lives as they lose control over their bodies.
Voluntary euthanasia is about choice at the end when the inevitable is known. For all of us we don’t know when we are going to die for most of our lives. But for some people a disease occurs and we are given medical advice that gives us a time frame but the time frame is variable. As the disease progresses that time frame becomes more defined until we get to a point when the doctors can say with reasonable accuracy that the person only has a few weeks or days to live. In my experience nurses are more accurate in that prediction.
For those people who know that every medical option has been tried and failed and that the end is only a matter of a short period of time and the pain or indignity is too much to bear then the option of a controlled and relatively pain free death with as much dignity as can be offered should surely be a option.
Cheers 🙂#1737507arandarMemberMember since: November 23, 2009
Replies: 10820arandar November 19, 2019 at 2:24 pm
PaulineM, let me turn your question around.
What medical expertise do you have that gives you the confidence or the right to force another person to continue to exist after they have decided*** they can no longer bear to do so?
(***Providing, they meet all the proposed criteria – have a terminal illness that will result in death within 6 months, are of sound mind, have not been coerced or otherwise persuaded to choose assisted suicide and any other safeguards that might be added in future.)
Arandar#1737543paulinem November 19, 2019 at 7:29 pm
Hero to understanding the meaning etc of the bible takes years of study, priests for example have six years of study in their training much of it is being taught to understand the bible ie they preach what it is saying teaching to their congregation. Thus you just reading it will not give you an immediate understanding of the message it is relaying such as you suggest approving suicide. I am no expert in what is written in the bible as I suspect you are not also ! But if you do read it then I suggest the four gospels there is much there as guidance of the life we live in daily lives
Ah actually Hero I do remember a post of yours a while back where you said /suggested that God/Jesus is an imaginary person that devotees follow.
Arandar I trust the medical people I know to put the patients interest at their best interest. The ones I know would use all the skills they have to assist their patient to continue to live in painless life as they can make it. They would NEVER assist in their suicide.As they entered the medical profession and trained and work to save and care for lives to live a good life not kill them!
I gave you an example to two cancer patients that didn’t die in the time they were given but instead with medical assistance went on to live a good and full filling life, This I suspect is far more normal than the rare extreme cases you and others put forward to justify your desire you see that some patients should be inflicted with assisted suicide or killing.
The medics/palliative care experts have told us that Seymours legislation is full of holes and is very dangerous based on overseas experience (where sadly euthanasia is legal ) to be abused especially by those sick patients who are weak and vulnerable such as some grownups !!#1737591gabyoneMemberMember since: November 13, 2008
Replies: 2781gabyone November 20, 2019 at 10:17 am
Just as you have quoted 2 cancer patients who died comfortably ( in your opinion) I could also quote various cases where the last months, weeks or days of loved ones were absolute awful pain. One elderly family member, refused all medication ( a non cancer patient) and literally starved themselves to death to end their pain. As for all your supposed interpreting of the bible, a family member who is a practising priest, does not spout all the interpretations that you like to quote. Religions are modernising also & I suggest that dark ages interpretations no longer part of progressive Christianity. We are not talking about euthanising everyone. Read the legislation and allow others to interpret it in light of modern thinking.
Gabyone Auckland region#1737633Hero42MemberMember since: July 18, 2008
Replies: 12145Hero42 November 20, 2019 at 12:35 pm
I fear you are confusing me with someone else as I know from historic records Jesus existed so I wouldn’t say he didn’t.
I didn’t say the bible approved of suicide I said it didn’t condemn it or say it was a sin.
Although two of the incidents of self-killing in the Bible exhibit a positive attitude toward suicide. Arguably, the author of the Gospel of Matthew intends the reader to interpret the disciple Judas’s hanging as an act of remorse. Judas repents and returns the blood money that he received for turning Jesus over to the authorities who executed him (Matt 27:3). Judas acknowledges that he has “sinned in betraying innocent blood” (Matt 27:4). His suicide may be interpreted as an act of atonement because he himself carries out the penalty laid down in the Hebrew Bible for taking a life: “no expiation can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of him who shed it” (Num 35:33; see also Lev 24:17). There is no hint of condemnation of Judas’s self-killing in Matthew. If anything, it is a solution to his guilt rather than something that adds to it.
Expiation means the act of making amends or reparation for guilt or wrongdoing; atonement.
The Israelite leader Samson’s suicide is interpreted positively. The narrator lingers over the body count caused by Samson’s suicidal killing at a pagan temple; it is clear that God gave Samson the strength to carry out this massacre. Human and divine approval is sealed by the celebratory conclusion: “so those he killed at his death were more than those he had killed during his life” (Judg 16:30; compare with Heb 11:32-36).
While modern readers may be less inclined to share the narrator’s view that Samson’s suicide should be commended, there are parallel examples of heroic suicides in contemporary film, such as Spock in The Wrath of Khan, astronauts in Armageddon and Deep Impact, and especially the character of Russell in Independence Day.
On a separate point if a medical person advised you that it would be better for a patient in pain and suffering that they were assisted to die by increasing their morphine drip would you take that medical person’s advice? And don’t say a doctor or nurse wouldn’t give that advice as it has been known to happen.
Also what would your view be of a doctor who wanted to withhold medicine from a patient because they were already in their 80s, were a burden on the system and it was time for them to go as happened with my mother? Incidentally we insisted on the medicine and she lived another 15 years.
Cheers 🙂#1737645paulinem November 20, 2019 at 3:36 pm
Paulinem Religions are modernising also & I suggest that dark ages interpretations no longer part of progressive Christianity. We are not talking about euthanizing everyone. Read the legislation and allow others to interpret it in light of modern thinking.
Gabyone : what dark age interpretations are no longer part of Christianity.? And Hero as I said in my reply a reputably Minister of Christian religion do years of study before they preach. There study is done under the guidance of trained biblical tutors.
So sorry no desire to answer your question as I said I am no expert and neither are you of the bible. I strongly suggest if you want a experts interpretation of the various quotes you mentioned then go and talk to a reputable minister of the christian religion ( ie not one whom has gone through little or no study or training in the Bible ) A reputable minister whom has had years of religious study can give you the answers you want.
Gabyone I have listened and taken note of trained medical experts especially palliative care trained personal . They have strongly condemned this awful legislation as been full of holes and open to abuse.I suggest you listen to them also and not have a closed mind on what they are saying.
Lets not forget it will be vulnerable older grownups at risk of the abuse. Something the present working/taxpaying generation might be tempted to abuse as we grownups are far bigger in number and collecting the growing unsustainable tax funded super.
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