- #1737207supergoldMemberMember since: May 9, 2009
Replies: 9102supergold November 14, 2019 at 10:48 pm
Gabyone Don and Bryan you do live in a fairy tale world at times, do you really think to legalize assisted suicide is a simple let the patient make their own choice ra ra. In your fairy tale world the weak and vulnerable pressured to die by invested interest dosen’t exist. But sadly you three they DO EXIST!!
Personal attacks are unnecessary and unwanted on our threads paulinem. Every one of us is entitled to our own opinion and it truly is only between them and their belief. I think it is perfectly alright to express your opinion on what you feel is best for yourself and for others to read that but it should only be done without putting down the person who has a different opinion to one’s own.
I am looking forward to having the opportunity to vote in the referendum on the euthanasia issue and, just like any selection I choose to make for a candidate or party I wish to govern this country, I will keep who and what I voted for to myself. I suggest you leave people to make their own choice just as you yourself have, without the derisive criticism.
Another important point you appear to have totally overlooked is that the politicians who voted in parliament voted whether or not to have a referendum at the election next year to give the voting public of New Zealand the chance to give anyone who has only six months left to live the opportunity to be considered to legally seek assisted suicide.
Supergold-Wainuiomata (Wellington)#1737210halcyonMemberMember since: May 4, 2014
Replies: 4965halcyon November 15, 2019 at 9:22 am
Well said supergold. I agree totally.
It is not what is said but how it is said that is important. Paulinem, I accept the point you make about being concerned that “vested interest” may reduce the ability of the “weak and vulnerable” to make a rational decision in respect of death. However, the way you have expressed it robs your statement of its strength.
Debate is important, but lets keep the focus on the moot and not on the person.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)#1737229paulinemMemberMember since: July 8, 2006
Replies: 1073paulinem November 15, 2019 at 3:47 pm
Super gold those three saw they had the right to choose to ask another human to provide the means to die or to kill themselves if the occasion was right. In other words they see it is okay to be able to ask for assisted or assistance of another human to help kill them for an unnatural end of life.
In saying they see this legislation with fairy tale view is being kind I could have been honest and said they were being very selfish. Medical persons spend many many years in training and study to learn to save lives ie not kill lives.
Supergold I am well aware of the referendum next year, for the yes or no vote do you support right to die, when a more honest question is do you support assisted dying/ euthanasia legislation yes or no Supergold and Halycon ?
How do grownups feel about expecting another human to assist in the killing/murder/suicide of another human? As this is the reality of euthanasia and as I said in my post previous in countries that sadly have this horrendous legislation that condones murder by killer doctors. This has seen several accidental opps wrong person killed is happening in these countries….. familiarity breeds contempt.
How do grownups feel about Seymours legislation that is so full of holes and mistakes that our weak and vulnerable do need to be worried. This is why 1200 doctors signed a letter saying NO to this evil legislation!!#1737238arandarMemberMember since: November 23, 2009
Replies: 10820arandar November 15, 2019 at 4:09 pm
I don’t believe any doctor will have to provide euthanasia, just as no doctor has to perform abortions if their personal religious beliefs or ethics do not allow them to so I’d stop worrying about them if I were you, PaulineM.
Doctors take an oath that includes swearing they will firstly try to ‘do no harm’.
I should think there will be many who think keeping someone alive against their express wishes is to do that person considerable harm.
You have your own strongly held beliefs. I respect that. You should respect others’ equally strongly held beliefs too don’t you think?
I also think you should stop calling them ‘killer doctors’, a deeply unfair and slanderous thing to say of any other than, and I doubt you are referring to them, the few medical maniacs who’ve used their access to the sick and vulnerable to murder them for their own perverted, illegal reasons.
#1737246supergoldMemberMember since: May 9, 2009
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by arandar.
Replies: 9102supergold November 15, 2019 at 4:23 pm
Supergold I am well aware of the referendum next year, for the yes or no vote do you support right to die, when a more honest question is do you support assisted dying/ euthanasia legislation yes or no Supergold
I have already stated above in 1737207 that I will definitely vote = “I am looking forward to having the opportunity to vote in the referendum on the euthanasia issue and, just like any selection I choose to make for a candidate or party I wish to govern this country, I will keep who and what I voted for to myself.”
Whether or not I support for or against assistance to die is absolutely none of your business whatsoever and it is impertinent to insist on knowing what my response will be.
Supergold-Wainuiomata (Wellington)#1737250gabyoneMemberMember since: November 13, 2008
Replies: 2781gabyone November 15, 2019 at 5:34 pm
Paulinem : No one else is insisting that others must agree with them. Your instance in calling out those of us who disagree your opinion is bordering on the type of behaviour that caused the political threads to be closed.
Euthanasia will not be compulsory if the public vote goes that way.!!! And dare I say that it is no one else’s business if a person living in agony chooses to shorten the time they live.
Please stop sniping at those of us who do not share your view. You are entitled to your opinion but not to expect me to agree with you.
Gabyone Auckland region#1737252huiatahiMemberMember since: March 22, 2017
Replies: 1032huiatahi November 15, 2019 at 5:48 pm
By voting yes doesn’t make it compulsory…..the choice is up to you.
#1737254halcyonMemberMember since: May 4, 2014
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by huiatahi.
Replies: 4965halcyon November 15, 2019 at 6:00 pm
arandar, you make a good point when you mention that doctors take the Hippocratic oath, which requires them to “first do no harm”. Now how do we define “harm”. Which is the more harmful, assisting a patient who is in immense pain, and at the person’s requite, to end their suffering? Or maintain life for days, and even weeks, of suffering?
I do not know the answer. But I believe it is a discussion we need to have before next election day.
And to your question Paulinem. I do not know how I will vote on this referendum at this stage. I would like to see both the actual wording of the legislation and have greater discussion on the topic before making up my mind. I believe there are good arguments on both sides.
Unfortunately, like climate change, people seem to take extreme positions based on emotive rhetoric rather than on sound debate. So lets debate this in a rational manner.
PS. Arandar, if I have extrapolated to extremely from your comment and mis-interpreted your point, I apologise. It is a good point.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)#1737264paulinemMemberMember since: July 8, 2006
Replies: 1073paulinem November 15, 2019 at 7:00 pm
Arandar you are deliberately deviating from the reality of euthanasia it is in reality requesting another human to assist in a suicide. If it was up to the individual only to commit suicide as you and your supporter imply there would be no case against it – except perhaps the loved ones whom grieve the death by suicide.
But is not is is it Arandar euthanasia is taking a medic trained to save lives and making them killers whom assist another human to commit a suicidal death !
In the medical/drugs available in our world we live in today no one needs to die naturally in pain#1737265arandarMemberMember since: November 23, 2009
Replies: 10820arandar November 15, 2019 at 7:00 pm
I think you have understood my point exactly, Halcyon.
IMO, how to keep the promise to (try to) do no harm should be up to the individual doctor to decide (with due regard to the law of course) what is the harm, what is the least harm, what is the consequence for their patient of the doctor’s action or inaction.
IMO, there are worse things than death. One is a long, living dying.
I’ve just read a FB post from a woman whose mother has recently died after 12 years with dementia. Early on, she said over and over again, she didn’t want to die of it. She finally died, unable to recognise anyone, unable to speak or understand anything said or done to her, unable even to eat; she was fed by tube. She weighed 36kgs when she died. The poster said it was terrible for everyone concerned.
I dread such an end for me. Losing my mind. Losing my capacity to take care of my personal hygiene. Losing hope. Being truly lonely.
As a family, we have quite a bit to do with dementia. Trust me when I say, while I respect utterly your absolute right to choose to live until you die, the worst of what I’ve seen is several steps beyond where I choose to go.
It’s been said many times before; anyone leaving a companion animal to die like that would be charged with animal cruelty or neglect. Any vet would say the kindest thing to do for your loved pet would be to give them a kind and gentle death.
One more thing while I’m thinking about it. I’ve told this story here before I know but it left a lasting impact on me.
One of our neighbours, ageing and with a number of serious illnesses, including a terminal cancer and Alzheimers, committed suicide when her request to be helped to die with dignity could not be met.
She left no note. She told no one when she was going to do it but she’d told many that us that she would find a way to die when she was ready. She threw herself off a cliff.
I think about her daughter who loved her and wanted to help her but couldn’t and I think about the three little kids playing on the beach who discovered her broken body. That’s not something they’ll ever forget I’m sure.
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