Login/Join to access your personalised dashboard now! Returning user? Log in or Register
Log in to your GrownUps

Failure of private property based capitalism ?

This topic contains 80 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of jens jens > 7 days ago.

Discussions Politics Failure of private property based capitalism ?

Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 81 total)
  • #1663229
    Profile photo of alwaysbooksalwaysbooks
    Member
    Member since: May 12, 2015
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 60
    alwaysbooks

    There does seem to be an increasing number of people who are maxing out their credit cards and this would have an impact on their savings, no doubt.
    However, I don’t believe this is a major contributor to poverty or drops in saving.
    Consider that 50 – 60 years ago an ordinary working man, and I use the word deliberately, could put in a 45 hour, 5 and a half day working week and his wages would be enough for him to cover his mortgage, keep his wife, raise his 2.5 kids have couple beers and a little flutter on the horses and put a little in the bank each week. An ordinary working man can’t do that these days, not unless his wife is also working. To get the number of hours to earn enough for the bare basics they’re probably having to work multiple jobs and even then their cchances of saving for the future is limited.
    Part of the problem is that labour is undervalued and the law prevents the working person from taking any action from improving their position.
    Another sign that labour is not valued can be seen in how we treat theft. If an employee steals from employer then the full force of criminal law is bought to bear against the erring worker. On the other hand, if an employer steals from an employee it is treated as a civil matter and even when discovered and remedied there is no criminal record against the employer. Justice? I don’t think so.
    There are many other examples of how labour, as a commodity, is disadvantaged in our free market. Remedying these will do more to reduce poverty and improve savings than tinkering with taxation will achieve.

    #1663326
    Profile photo of jensjens
    Member
    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
    Replies: 7234
    jens

    alwysbooks – can you please  give at least just 1  well explained  reason  why  you think “people’s capitalism” as defined on  Jan 16th,  can be described as  “airy fairy” utopian idealism ?

    Yes, while it might  be never achieved to  the “minimally meaningful level of  wealth  ownership” –  (ca say $300 000.-  by each citizen at present, even though within  a few generations a huge proportion of citizens  might be  born with that amount of inheritable wealth ownership to their name  already) –

    but with even   deliberate spend-thrifts, hedonists and the seriously  unfortunates accumulating  some retirement  capital ownership –

    is it not clear that the  economy would be so much stronger  with  so much more welfare capital ownership, that much better care can be taken of  the increasing  proportion of our  longer living  descendants  in relation to the  working age population  –

    not as an increasing  burden  to them, but as being able to increasingly reward workers for their  services delivered  from the  retirement capital assets accumulated by seniors, and  much less needed  directly  for  financing  “hand-to-mouth”  consumption  by  workers for  superannuation  and eldercare ?

    This does not   replace the “Hidden  Hand”  of Adam Smith’s  free market economy, but only rectifies its excessively  libertarian   way of application which  increasingly  leads to socio-economic polarization  into Haves and “Have-Nots” through effectively  persuasive  salesmanship  of  consumption even on credit.

    While higher  earnings might improve the country’s  savings rate, this does not necessarily eliminate  the proportin of  habitual  spend-thrifts.

    Our  welfare state  of 60 year age  did not lead to increasing prosperity  by all with reduced demand  for  benefits, but actually  encouraged  poverty  in order  to  qualify   for more benefits.

    The 100% Ownership  Society  or  Peoples Capitalism first presented for  discussion  here  by  Dr. David Skilling of the NZ Institute over 15 years ago –

    deserves serious discussion and  consideration as  the  “new ” socio-economic  vision  needed here, which has achieved  spectacular results in Singapore already.

     

    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by Profile photo of jens jens.
    #1663374
    Profile photo of alwaysbooksalwaysbooks
    Member
    Member since: May 12, 2015
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 60
    alwaysbooks

    No I’m not interested in playing that game. I can’t be bothered doing the study required to go into that level of detail. But I will say this. Every new political/social/economic theory that is rolled out with the promise of creating a new Utopia turns out to be nothing but airy fairy nonsense. It was true of Douglas credit, it was true of Marx’s communism, it’s true of rogernomics, it’s true of Keynesian economics, it’s true of Smith’s supply and demand invisible hand. None of them work as predicted. Why? Because people! Most people will always act in their own self interest and screw the system, take more than they contribute
    It’s a mistake to put your faith in any economic theory as a solution to inequable distribution of wealth.
    Economists will try to tell you they practice a science. That’s rubbish. Economics is nothing more than a modern form witchcraft.

    #1663437
    Profile photo of jensjens
    Member
    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
    Replies: 7234
    jens

    alwaysbooks  –  if  you are  serious in your belief in witchcraft then you are  practically in the “Flat  Earther”  stage  of reality perception, and  “not bothering  to study” can  only keep you there.

    Economics on the  tangible and  measurable level is  subject to the same laws of  physics regardless under what  kind of  ideology we live  or what we  believe.

    Everything that  moves or grows  consumes energy,  and therefore the  basic  priority  for  survival and  growth  is  profitability  over the energy consumed  for  acquiring  the  energy  for  living  and  growing, such as can be illustrated by a bear having to  store up fat for  survival  when  hibernating  in winter.

    Hard work that is  unprofitable  – or of which  nothing is saved  for lean times  – does not  prevent  starvation  in lean  times.

    Someone had  to save and invest in the  house you live in,  alwaysbooks – there is no witchcraft in that, is there ?

    So – there  should be no difficulty in understanding  and trusting  the  effectiveness  of a systematic,  measurable (not imaginary) capital savings rate  based  “people’s capitalism” with  participation by all –  as more successful in  poverty  elimination and prevention  than  whatever  has been  tried or “theorized” in the Western World  so far.

    alwaysbooks  –  do you think  the  $1000.- Kiwi Saver  kick-start  to all  who have not received it  yet – “from  cradle to  grave” –  would be a fair and egalitarian (retirement) wealth  ownership  creative  “seed grain” of benefit  to the  national economy and  personal retirement  welfare –  or  just a short term  “splash” similar to  I believe  Mr. Nordmeyer’s   100.- pounds or dollars  election  (Christmas)  gift many years  ago ?

    #1663443
    Profile photo of drlivingstonedrlivingstone
    Member
    Member since: October 22, 2006
    Topics: 304
    Replies: 34938
    drlivingstone

    And who has benefitted by the sale of  some of our most treasured landscapes all Half a million hectares of them? Wealthy foreigners snapping  up valuable land once owned by the public in a vast wave of privatisation. Who should own our high country  BILLIONAIRES  looking for boltholes?

    Dr.Livingstone
    Peoples Republic Of Christchurch

    #1663465
    Profile photo of drlivingstonedrlivingstone
    Member
    Member since: October 22, 2006
    Topics: 304
    Replies: 34938
    drlivingstone

    How many of these billionaires were given “exceptional citizenship status”  whilst  “an obscure  but vast transfer of wealth and resources took place” and why did the previous government behave so strangely?

    Dr.Livingstone
    Peoples Republic Of Christchurch

    #1663473
    Profile photo of mommabear70mommabear70
    Member
    Member since: February 20, 2017
    Topics: 7
    Replies: 1265
    mommabear70

    drlivingstone, I’d say the foreign investors have done the CoL a favour.
    To keep their promise to plant one billion trees (1,000 trees planted per hectare) they need to purchase one million hectares.

    Land to plant the billion trees on is 6 times the size of Kaiangaroa Forest.
    One million hectares if in one part = 100km long x 100km wide.
    Now draw a square that size on a map of NZ and see how much land is needed for this failed promise.

    So at $8000 per hectare that comes out at a mere $8000 billion(if we use the short scale) just for the land.
    Or if the CoL continue down the weaseling out path and only meant for the govt to plant half a billion trees, then they still have to stump up with $4000 billion.
    What would that cost to borrow?

    Of course, as soon as the officials are sent out out to buy land the price won’t stay around $8,000 ph for long.

    Birdbrains.

    Practically all of the CoL lineup are Mathematically challenged. Do not seem to be capable of simple arithmetic. Don’t even know how many of them are in the House at voting time.
    That’s why the CoL are happy for Hipkins to remove a national standard for educational achievement – that way no one will have to be held accountable as NZ produces more dopey, mathematically challenged no hopers!

    Then the idiot Jones talked about incentives for the foreign owners of forestry companies to plant more trees. What’s a bit more Corporate Welfare amongst friends.

    We’ve got a bunch of halfquarterwits running this country.

    And as if that isn’t bad enough, imagine the circus when Peters takes over.

    #1663498
    Profile photo of drlivingstonedrlivingstone
    Member
    Member since: October 22, 2006
    Topics: 304
    Replies: 34938
    drlivingstone

    A bitter pill for you to accept mommabear70 true but no justification for throwing your toys out of the cot?. Go Jacinda &Clarke I say and  a  generational change of a Prime Minister who is already  multitasking  with her Coalition Government. Looking forward to the challenges of 2018. 😀  😀

    Dr.Livingstone
    Peoples Republic Of Christchurch

    #1663528
    Profile photo of jensjens
    Member
    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 22
    Replies: 7234
    jens

    Hm  –  Dr. Livingstone is still at his old  game of diverting  attention  from discussing the  fairness and economic  wealth growth benefits or wealth  wastage  and loss by extending the $1000.- KiwiSaver  kick-start grant to all  who have  not received it yet, unconditionally to all, from cradle to grave.

    This of  course  would  very clearly start NZ off on the  third way,  upwards for all, and  gradually  reduce all socio-economic Right and Left wing sectional  interest  debates to marginal side-shows.

    Since personal  wealth ownership  gives individuals also  some  real economic power, responsibilities  and opportunities  beside  just a political vote, it is  clear  that  the  Ownership  Society concept is  democratically  superior  to  our  current liberal mixed economy of Haves and Have-Nots, and  even more so when compared to  the universal  mass poverty and  reduced  freedoms under  dictatorial state  monopoly  capitalism.

    Also, since nothing  can be  done  without  capitalism,  is it not only  fair  that   everyone participates in owning a  share of it ?

     

     

    #1663530
    Profile photo of drlivingstonedrlivingstone
    Member
    Member since: October 22, 2006
    Topics: 304
    Replies: 34938
    drlivingstone

    Capitalism with a human face  is way forward and that is what will bring fairness  eh?

    Dr.Livingstone
    Peoples Republic Of Christchurch

Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 81 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Advertisement
 
Join Free.  Register for newsletter updates & complete your membership for full site access.  Welcome & Enjoy!

Register Free today and go in the draw to win a $50 gift card!

Close this Window
 
GrownUps

GrownUps, New Zealand’s best lifestyle website, social club & brain training hub for 50+.

Join 145,000 GrownUps for Free. Register now to receive our regular email newsletters to keep you up to date & complete your membership to access all areas of the site.  We can’t wait to meet you.

Enjoy!

Register Free today and go in the draw to win a $50 gift card!