- #1742149jens February 6, 2020 at 12:13 pm
But, halcyon – have you still not caught up with the reality, that wealth redistributing welfare states begin to stall and decline at the point where they redistribute so much of their productivity that people begin to rely more on wealth redistribution than wealth creation ?
So, for an economically flourishing more egalitarian and democratic future where individuals “own” beside their vote power also some economic power through at least some economically meaningful personal wealth ownership and management responsibilities –
should not now – to prevent excessive productivity redistribution leading to reduced investment in productivity and the consequences of that –
our priority be an effort to extend participation in wealth creation and ownership by all ?
Working – productivity – and capitalism can survive only as long as they are profitable.
If ever investment in robotics remains profitable enough to justify huge investment in it to replace most human labor – then in principle, would not everyone’s participation in that investment effort and ownership actually deliver a dividend or even a Basic Universal Income potential ?#1742286jens February 8, 2020 at 11:25 am
Well, with no response on the “think about” thread on it so far –
is it true that productivity can be raised not only by the effort of working harder and earning more –
but also by just only eating (consuming) less or more cheaply ?#1742611jens February 13, 2020 at 11:15 am
If in your daily life you eat just a little less or more cheaply, you are like a better tuned up and more productive engine which consumes less fuel on the same amount of work.#1742619halcyon February 13, 2020 at 1:37 pm
Jens, in my first post on this thread I said: –
February 1, 2020 at 5:10 pm
The problem with your model for “achieving satisfying consumption potential even for the poorest have-nots among us” is seriously outdated. Twenty years ago I would have agreed. Based on economic theory of the 20th Century the model is well supported.
However, we are now in the 21st Century. Things are rapidly changing. The world is moving away from protectionist economies toward a global economy. Add to that the climate change crisis. In addition, the number of displaced persons looking for refugee status has never been higher.
You continue in your endeavor to create interest in your proposed financial model, Yet have you wondered why no one is interested in debating the topic. May I suggest that most people can see the futility of that model.
Trying talking less and observing more. Look at what is going on in he International scene. With huge numbers of people who do not have adequate food and clean water, how do you expect them to save. Would it not be better if those who have large resources saved up were to release those resources so all people could be fed?
In addition, consider the current focus on the climate crisis. Those in third world countries will not accept any reduction in their CO2 output. In fact they will want equality with us here in NZ. For that to happen we will need to greatly increase our own output. And what effect will that have on our economy?
That is the reason why the IPCC talk about the need to have control over national governments. In other words, world control of CO2 production.
This is not my acceptance of Marxism. But can you explain how you can meet the needs of the all the people in the world within a 10 year time frame? Even if we saved 33% of our income over that period we would not raise enough money.
Even in our own country we have people without adequate accommodation. And we are only a small country.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)#1742621dr-whoMemberMember since: April 12, 2017
Replies: 195dr-who February 13, 2020 at 2:14 pm
Very well said Halcyon.#1742686halcyon February 14, 2020 at 7:41 am
Jens, you complain that people do not want to discuss your ideas about economics. But you have not responded to my question. So I will ask it again,
But can you explain how you can meet the needs of the all the people in the world within a 10 year time frame?
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)#1742759jens February 14, 2020 at 7:47 pm
Hi halcyon –
my probable answer to your first post on this thread was, that economic theories and policies may change, but they all are and remain subject to the same universal law of nature or physics, which humans cannot change – that for humans it is physically impossible to create anything on the material level beyond hand-to-mouth consumption without saving (i.e. delivering) a surplus at the expense of hand-to-mouth consumption potential.
If you come up with the 21st century knowledge (or your own practical or imaginary) example of something created by humans without someone having had to save or accumulate for it first, then I will thank you for having enlightened me in knowledge, and relieved me of being an unpleasant “troll”.
So far, you have not done that.
I don’t think I ever proposed to meet the needs of all people in the world within 10 years, but if we come close to it in New Zealand, we would have demonstrated to the world how it can be done.
And in principle, the example to the world and New Zealand is in the 20% compulsory Provident Fund savings rate introduced for 3rd world poor Singaporeans shortly after they became independent after WW2, which raised them from 3rd world needs catering to 1st world needs satisfaction within one generation – 30 years.
Our problem seems to be that through unequal wealth ownership creation we are slipping towards an out-dated , feudalistic style socio-economic class polarization of haves and have-nots.
I believe that to work towards at least a minimally meaningful level (or more) of personal (retirement) wealth ownership creation by all citizens eventually – through 100% of citizen participation in the effort –
is a more constructively creative and modern idea, than just redistributing all or most of the wealth of the rich for consumption by the poor.
What is arguably or actually outdated on that, halcyon ?#1742765halcyon February 14, 2020 at 8:24 pm
I am afraid you are limited in your outlook Jens. Yes, 20 years ago in NZ we could have given every new born a bank account with $1,000 in it. Thereby starting them saving for their future retirement. So at that time you model may have had some validation.
In this country we now have 400,000 living in poverty. Every dollar they get is already committed. They do not have discretionary spending money they can save for some distant future. Especially as they may not live long enough to retire.
If the Government has spare money it should be directed providing relief for those in need, Not saved for some future time when inflation will have rendered that money worthless.
Now to the international scene. How would your scheme help the millions of people who are living in refugee camps. And in addition there are those living in their own lands who have insufficient food and water. How will your model elevate their needs and ensure their survival.
Time we stopped being individual focused and focus on human kind world wide
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)#1742771sonia997MemberMember since: February 14, 2020
Replies: 2sonia997 February 15, 2020 at 6:43 am
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Thanks, sonia 997 –
but should not that message be on a medical contemplations thread ?
Or – what has it to do with economics contemplations unless it is meant to divert attention from it ?
- This reply was modified 6 days, 9 hours ago by jens.
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