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Economics contemplations

This topic contains 36 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  jens 1 day, 18 hours ago.

Discussions Money & Life Plans Economics Economics contemplations

Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 37 total)
  • #1742149
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
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    jens

    But, halcyon –  have you still not  caught  up with the  reality,  that wealth  redistributing  welfare states begin to  stall  and decline  at the  point where they redistribute  so much  of their  productivity that  people begin to  rely  more  on  wealth redistribution than wealth  creation  ?

    So, for an economically  flourishing more egalitarian  and democratic  future where  individuals “own”  beside their  vote power  also  some  economic   power  through at least some economically  meaningful personal  wealth ownership and  management  responsibilities  –

    should not  now  –  to prevent  excessive productivity redistribution  leading  to reduced  investment in productivity  and the  consequences of that  –

    our priority  be  an effort to extend participation  in  wealth  creation and  ownership  by all ?

    Working  – productivity  –  and  capitalism  can survive  only as long as they are profitable.

    If ever  investment in robotics  remains  profitable enough  to  justify  huge  investment in it to replace most human  labor – then in principle, would  not everyone’s participation  in that investment effort and ownership actually deliver a  dividend  or even a  Basic Universal Income potential ?

    #1742286
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 16
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    jens

    Well, with no response on the  “think about”  thread on it  so far –

    is it  true that productivity can be raised  not only  by  the effort of working harder  and earning  more –

    but also  by  just only eating (consuming) less or  more  cheaply ?

    #1742611
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
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    jens

    If in  your daily life  you eat just a little  less  or more  cheaply, you are like  a better  tuned up and  more productive engine  which  consumes less fuel on the  same amount of  work.

     

    #1742619
    halcyon
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    Member since: May 4, 2014
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    halcyon

    Jens, in my first post on this thread I said: –


    halcyon
    February 1, 2020 at 5:10 pm
    The problem with your model for “achieving satisfying consumption potential even for the poorest have-nots among us” is seriously outdated. Twenty years ago I would have agreed. Based on economic theory of the 20th Century the model is well supported.
    However, we are now in the 21st Century. Things are rapidly changing. The world is moving away from protectionist economies toward a global economy. Add to that the climate change crisis. In addition, the number of displaced persons looking for refugee status has never been higher.

    You continue in your endeavor to create interest in your proposed financial  model, Yet have you wondered why no one is interested in debating the topic. May I suggest that most people can see the futility of that model.

    Trying talking less and observing more. Look at what is going on in he International scene. With huge numbers of people who  do not have adequate food and clean water, how do you expect  them to save. Would it not be better if those who have large resources saved up were to release those resources so all people could be fed?

    In addition, consider the current focus on the climate crisis. Those in third world countries will not accept any reduction in their CO2 output. In fact they will want equality with  us here in NZ. For that to happen we will need to greatly increase our own  output. And what effect will that have on our economy?

    That is the reason why the IPCC talk about the need to have control over national governments. In other words, world control of CO2 production.

    This is not my acceptance of Marxism. But can you explain how you can meet the needs of the all the people in the world within a 10 year time frame? Even if we saved 33% of our income over that period we would not raise enough money.

    Even in our own country we have people without adequate accommodation. And we are only a small country.

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)

    #1742621
    dr-who
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    Member since: April 12, 2017
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    dr-who

    Very well said Halcyon.

    #1742686
    halcyon
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    Member since: May 4, 2014
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    halcyon

    Jens, you complain that people do not want to discuss your ideas about economics. But you have not responded to my question. So I will ask it again,

    But can you explain how you can meet the needs of the all the people in the world within a 10 year time frame?

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)

    #1742759
    jens
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    jens

    Hi halcyon –

    my probable answer to your  first post on this  thread was,  that economic  theories and policies may  change, but they all  are and remain  subject to the   same universal  law of nature  or  physics, which  humans  cannot  change  – that  for  humans it is physically impossible  to  create  anything on the material level beyond  hand-to-mouth  consumption without saving (i.e. delivering) a surplus at the expense  of hand-to-mouth  consumption potential.

    If you  come up  with the 21st  century  knowledge  (or your own practical or imaginary)  example  of something created by humans without someone having had to  save or accumulate  for it  first, then I will  thank you  for  having  enlightened  me in knowledge,  and relieved  me  of being an unpleasant “troll”.

    So far, you have not  done that.

    I don’t think I ever  proposed to meet the needs of all  people in the world within  10 years, but if we  come  close  to it in New Zealand,  we  would have  demonstrated to the  world  how it can be  done.

    And in principle, the  example to the  world and  New Zealand is in the 20% compulsory Provident Fund savings rate introduced  for 3rd  world poor  Singaporeans  shortly after  they  became  independent  after WW2,  which  raised them from 3rd  world needs catering  to 1st world needs satisfaction within  one generation – 30 years.

    Our problem  seems to be that  through  unequal  wealth ownership  creation  we  are    slipping  towards an out-dated ,  feudalistic style socio-economic  class   polarization of  haves and  have-nots.

    I believe that to  work  towards  at least  a  minimally  meaningful level (or more) of  personal (retirement) wealth ownership creation by all  citizens  eventually – through  100%  of  citizen  participation in the  effort  –

    is a more  constructively creative and modern  idea, than  just  redistributing  all or  most of the wealth  of the  rich  for  consumption by the poor.

    What is arguably or actually  outdated  on that, halcyon ?

    #1742765
    halcyon
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    Member since: May 4, 2014
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    halcyon

    I am afraid you are limited in your outlook Jens. Yes, 20 years ago in NZ we could have given every new born a bank account with $1,000 in it. Thereby starting them saving for their future retirement. So at that time you model may have had some validation.

    In this country we now have 400,000 living in poverty. Every dollar they get is already committed. They do not have discretionary spending money they can save for some distant future. Especially as they may not live long enough to retire.

    If the Government has spare money it should be directed providing relief for those in need, Not saved for some future time when inflation will have rendered that money worthless.

    Now to  the international scene. How would your scheme help the millions of people who are living in refugee camps. And in addition there are those living in their own lands who have insufficient food and water. How will your model elevate their needs and ensure their survival.

    Time we stopped being individual focused and focus on human kind world wide

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)

    #1742771
    sonia997
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    Member since: February 14, 2020
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    sonia997

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    #1742776
    jens
    Member
    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 16
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    jens

    Thanks,  sonia 997 –

    but should not that message   be on a medical contemplations  thread ?

    Or – what has it to do with economics  contemplations  unless  it is meant  to divert  attention from it ?

    • This reply was modified 6 days, 9 hours ago by  jens.
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