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Design Assignment : Economic Security

This topic contains 29 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  jens > 7 days ago.

Discussions Money & Life Plans Economics Design Assignment : Economic Security

Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 30 total)
  • #1733025
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 15
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    jens

    Haha halcyon –

    1. – Do not haroOO4 and subsequent commentators  practically recommend a retreat into small scale  personal debt free capitalism (use your savings  for  owning and  managing some  universally and  at all times needed  basic  assets) ?

    2.  Have you not realized  yet, that the out-dated political  concept of the economic  process of saving for reserves  and profitable  investment  –  capitalism –  does  not apply only to a  private property  based economy , but to any kind of  economy  you can think of – and even communists without  capitalism  would be  nothing but cave  dwelling  hunters and gatherers ?

    You  are welcome  to question  or   refute (with  evidence based substantiation) this statement.

    If  you  don’t – then  would it not be reasonable  for all  those dissatisfied with  the  performance of capitalism so far – to  participate  in lively discussions on how to get it  working   for the satisfaction  of the overwhelming majority ?

    TedE believes in  debt  free  credit creation  on  that(?), and you  seem to think  the  social  ownership of capital  might  achieve more satisfactory results(?).

    But whatever  you think on that  subject matter,  please let us know  about   your reasons for it, so their  pros and  cons can be openly discussed  in rational  way.

    #1733037
    halcyon
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    Member since: May 4, 2014
    Topics: 8
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    halcyon

    And what happens to your savings when the economy crashes? Currently there are a number of countries that hold considerable debt. The following are the debt to GDP ratios of the top 10 in debt countries.

    1,    Japan         237.6

    2.    Greece        181.8

    3.    Lebanon     146.8

    4.      Italy           131.8

    5 ………. down to

    10.   Egypt           103

     

    These countries may survive as long as there  is no serious economic downturn. But given the political instability in the world the potential for a recession can not be ignored.

    And  that is only considering the monitory situation. I have not even started to consider the human dynamic.

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)

    #1733043
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 15
    Replies: 7683
    jens

    halcyon  –  if the  economy  crashes  and all money saved  becomes  worthless – as it did e.g. in Germany in 1945 and in Czarist  Russia 100 years ago –  then – as long as private wealth ownership is still legally  permitted  –  those  who own tangible assets of  any practical or even only imaginary  value such as things  considered to be very  beautiful  –

    still retain a better  position  than those  who owned nothing beside the attributes for their  daily needs.

    And yes, a social effort  will then be organized to alleviate the  situation, but  rest assured  it will be  more  successful the  more  individuals  start saving and  investment  for profitable productivity.

    Lenin in Communist Russia  permitted private farming for a while in  the early 1920-s  to overcome  a serious  shortage  of food production, and German  economics  minister (???Erhard???) very effectively  accelerated   economic  recovery in Germany through a   personal 10 year compulsory (retirement) estate ownership creative  savings scheme in the  late 1940-s or early 50-s.

    And we  in relatively  debt free New Zealand  hardly noticed the  “great  crash”  of 10 years ago, did we ?

    I actually believe  that any bankrupting economic  crashes will only make  people more  aware  of the advantages  of debt free assets  ownership,  don’t you also, halcyon ?

     

     

    #1733316
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 15
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    jens

    Well, halcyon  –  what  do  you think   the  “human dynamic” will  be when  there is a serious economic  recession  with  many  bankruptcies ?

    Obviously, it  won’t be “the end of the  world” (?) –  and life will go  on.

    Any  clues about it in Orwell’s ” Animal Farm”  book  ?

    #1734825
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 15
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    jens

    Well  –  while  the easiest thing to do  with the  current  budget  surplus  is to  consume it  via freely  consumable  tax reductions or increased  welfare  benefits  –  but would it not be  more wise and responsible to save  at  least a (substantial)  proportion  for  “rainy days”  and investment (spending) on  needed infrastructure  construction and maintenance and profitable productivity ?

    #1735789
    jens
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    jens

    The  question as above, which no one  bothered  to comment on one way or the other, can be  put  also this way:

    What is a more  altruistic,  effective and socially beneficial way to help  people out of  poverty, who  for  whatever reason cannot  earn  the  level of  income  they would  like  to  have   –

    1. A certain poverty alleviating  welfare  grant for immediate  consumption  –

    2. Or the same  grant  containing  a component  of wealth ownership  creation ?

     

     

    #1735916
    TedE
    Member
    Member since: May 6, 2006
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 2274
    TedE

    Well, Elle it’s now 9 years on from your initial post and I wonder what you got from the replies and how your project went.

    A lot has changed in the intervening years and no doubt you will be busy with your career but I would be interested in your perspective.

    TedE - Papakura -

    #1736133
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 15
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    jens

    A pity  it looks like Elle for  whatever reason could not inform  us  about  the  results of her study.

    And  yes,  everything keeps changing, but it is  always  only within  the limits set by the  basics of the laws  of nature, and  I cannot  imagine  Elle  having  discovered  anything  new  about feeling  secure  and safe economically and socially.

    In view that usually  (normally?)  even the  poorest display some  material possessiveness as  essential  for even  their  modest  welfare and security (!)  –

    would not all dissatisfaction,  insecurity and  fears on this  subject matter  be most effectively and  fairly  resolved  through  a systematic  effort with participation  by all  towards  at  least a minimally  meaningful  level of  personal wealth  ownership  by all?

    #1736204
    halcyon
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    Member since: May 4, 2014
    Topics: 8
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    halcyon

    Jens, your idea is dependent on the survival of our present capitalistic model. The question is “can we assume that capitalism will survive into the future?” There is certainly evidence to show a changing of attitudes, especially amongst the younger generations. The following extracts were lifted from a report prepared by the Pew Foundation and published on the CBN news website.

    The YouGov/Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation survey of some 2,100 young people ages 16 and over found that 70 percent of Millennials said they were somewhat or extremely likely to vote for a socialist.

    Millennials’ birth years span from 1981 to 1996.
    Of Gen Z, those born beginning in 1997 with the oldest now being 22 years old, 64 percent said they were somewhat or extremely likely to vote for a socialist.

    The trend toward a willingness to vote for a socialist candidate coincided with an apparent dwindling of support for capitalism, with 50 percent of Millennials and 51 percent of Generation Z having a somewhat or very unfavorable view of capitalism.

    Remember:

    Socialism, according to the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics, is a “centrally planned economy in which the government controls all means of production.

    May I suggest that we will experience a swing towards  socialism within the next 10 years. This swing will be assisted by reducing the voting age to 16 and leveraged by the climate change movement.

    This raises another question,” why continue to argue for a system that is doomed to collapse?”

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” (George Orwell, The Animal Farm)

    #1736221
    jens
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    Member since: May 3, 2006
    Topics: 15
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    jens

    But halcyon  –

    Any  govt or privately  owned capital  – including the means of production – cannot be created  out of nothing ,  nor out of  “debt free” credit nor overdraft or”Keynesian”  credit  backed  by  nothing, and  even a pure  primitive  barter economy with  no more capital ownership than perhaps reasonable rain  and  frost resistant living quarters  –

    contains already  the seeds  of  more elaborate  capitalism in the produce  to be accumulated for bartering in  larger  quantities than  daily  or weekly  consumption needs.

    In other  words, capitalism is a  basic  economic  function without  which we  would be  still cave dwelling  hunters and  gatherers.

    State monopoly  capitalism  or Socialism as  in the  definition you quoted above – is  subject  to exactly the  same economic basics  as  private  capitalism e.g.  for the  purpose of  building  a house  or producing  something  extra  for  consumption :

    Someone  must save or sacrifice consumption potential for  something to be available  for investment – and if  the investment is  unprofitable, it is  unsustainable unless  subsidized  by profits or  takings  or expropriations  from elsewhere.

    Our  young people  possibly think that socialism means just being  socially  concerned as we  already are under the mixed (public and private) capitalist Social Democratic  Welfare  State  concept   –  and not as totalitarian  State Monopoly  Capitalism.

    But yes –  as  Socialism has discredited  itself  through  poverty  for the  people, and free  market  “neo-libertarianism” intensifies socio-economic  polarization into Haves  and Have-Nots, –

    what else than “peoples capitalism” defined   by  moving towards at least a minimally  meaningful  level  of  personal  (retirement)  wealth  ownership  by all  citizens eventually without  prohibiting some people  being  more prosperous  than  others –   can  you,  halcyon –  think of  –  for  a socio-economically more  fairly  egalitarian  future ?

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